Gruler Nation Podcast

Episode #97: How to Keep Getting Business During COVID- 19 with Harlan Schillinger

April 15, 2020 Robert F. Gruler Jr., Esq.
Gruler Nation Podcast
Episode #97: How to Keep Getting Business During COVID- 19 with Harlan Schillinger
Chapters
Gruler Nation Podcast
Episode #97: How to Keep Getting Business During COVID- 19 with Harlan Schillinger
Apr 15, 2020
Robert F. Gruler Jr., Esq.

Lawyers, legal assistants, and justice system personnel this episode of the Gruler Nation Podcast is for you! I am joined by Harlan Schillinger, an expert in legal advertising with a passion for legal marketing, intake, and conversation.  

 

In the legal field, Harlan was the very first to produce and market Television Advertising for the Legal community. Harlan has worked with more than 130 law firms in over 98 markets! Currently, he only consults privately with lawyers who share his vision of increasing business, being accountable, and obtaining high- value cases.  

 

In this Zoom podcast with Harlan we get his insight and guidance on what lawyers and law firms can be doing to keep getting business in light of COVID- 19.  

 

Interested in connecting with Harlan? VIsit his website harlanschillinger.com or connect with him on LinkedIn. Also, feel free to get in touch with Harlan via Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/HarlanSchillinger.Stratagist.3038177313/ 

 

#covid19 #coronavirus #smallbusiness #lawfirm #marketing #marketingstrategy #lawyers #legalfield #justicesystem #legaladvertising #legalmarketing #intak #advertising #grulernationpodcast #podcast #grulernation #scottsdalearizona #arizona  

 

Show Notes Transcript

Lawyers, legal assistants, and justice system personnel this episode of the Gruler Nation Podcast is for you! I am joined by Harlan Schillinger, an expert in legal advertising with a passion for legal marketing, intake, and conversation.  

 

In the legal field, Harlan was the very first to produce and market Television Advertising for the Legal community. Harlan has worked with more than 130 law firms in over 98 markets! Currently, he only consults privately with lawyers who share his vision of increasing business, being accountable, and obtaining high- value cases.  

 

In this Zoom podcast with Harlan we get his insight and guidance on what lawyers and law firms can be doing to keep getting business in light of COVID- 19.  

 

Interested in connecting with Harlan? VIsit his website harlanschillinger.com or connect with him on LinkedIn. Also, feel free to get in touch with Harlan via Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/HarlanSchillinger.Stratagist.3038177313/ 

 

#covid19 #coronavirus #smallbusiness #lawfirm #marketing #marketingstrategy #lawyers #legalfield #justicesystem #legaladvertising #legalmarketing #intak #advertising #grulernationpodcast #podcast #grulernation #scottsdalearizona #arizona  

 

Support the show (https://www.ericshouse.org/donate/)

Speaker 1:

Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of ruler nation podcast. My name is Robert ruler. It's a special episode for all of you lawyers out there. Anybody who's a legal assistant, anybody who works in law firms or the justice system throughout the United States and really throughout the world because we're joined today by a special guest, Harlan Schillinger, and he is somebody who's been involved in legal marketing, legal advertising, helping law firms, weather storms and survive crises throughout basically since the 1970s. And so we're, we're, we have him here, uh, telephonically and I'm going to switch over to him. Harlan, thanks for being on the show here today. Oh, Robert, my pleasure. Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you. So, you know, it's funny, a lot of people don't know this, right? But there was a time in the United States where lawyers were not allowed to advertise and, and, and something changed. And basically that's what kind of brought you to the market. Right. Can you tell us sort of that story, how you got into legal marketing, legal advertising?

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, it changed here in Arizona, you know, with the Bateson van O'Steen against the Supreme court and, or the United States. Uh, it was actually, it was a, it was an action against the American bar association and allow lawyers to advertise. That came down in 1977 78 I was making television commercials for upper end retailers, but also making the, you know, the Irish spring commercials Nasima take it all off. So I have a Madison Avenue background. We started that business in 75. In 78 I produced my first legal commercials on a syndicated basis. The only other person that was on television at the time was Len Jacoby and Len, it became a good friend, still is a good friend and my old agency still handles his account. And so I've been in it since the very, very beginning that we made these commercials. We found out around the United States, knocked on doors. We just bought them. In 1984 I merged my business, uh, with Norton Frickey who was the lawyer in Denver, was a pioneer in legal advertising. We, uh, we doubled down on network affiliates, uh, excellent agency. I retired from that agency, uh, after 30 some odd years, uh, four years ago. And now I'm just doing private, private consulting and, uh, you know, uh, you know, some self-marketing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And you know, I see you everywhere. I know you're involved in the national trial lawyers. I know you've been doing a lot of podcasts, basically a lot of people are, and I appreciate you coming on this one. You know, people are sort of reaching out to you for some, for some guidance in light of coronavirus, coven 19, the quarantine, the lockdown, the, you know, global meltdown that we're all sort of living through because you've been, you've been around a while and you've seen some other things. Right. And I was thinking back, okay, you know, you got started in the 70s, uh, you know, late seventies. And so you've, you've seen some of these recessions and some of these, these, uh, kind of downturns, right? You've seen, uh, you know, nine 11,

Speaker 2:

for example, you've seen the great recession, you've seen, you know, all the, the.com bust. And you know, in the 2000. So you've kinda been around and you've been through this and so I'm, I'm just really kind of curious as to what you're seeing out there and then maybe we can talk about what, what you think some good pivots might be for some lawyers. Yeah. What's going on right now is, is that the establishment is calling them what we call the gray hairs. I'm a gray hair obviously, you know, through it and uh, you know, who you going to ask, you know, some of the millennial that hasn't, you know, even, you know, witnessed any of these kinds of things. So basically, uh, there are, first of all is, you know, there's never been anything like this before because the whole country really is somewhat shutdown.

Speaker 2:

Country's a shutout in commerce was being shut down. We went through the downturn, nothing was chuffed down, things slow down and, and money became a little tighter and we had to deal with those challenges. But right now there isn't anybody on the road. There aren't any accidents, there aren't crimes that are being committed. Right. Thank God. And so this is truly the result of what we call that Pam dip pandemic, uh, which I think we're starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. And so how you navigate through these kinds of, you know, scenarios. Well, how would navigating through this particular scenario is, is, is what we're all been talking about. Uh, and so, you know, it brings us to today. You know, it's kind of interesting in the way we met. We met, uh, you were listening to or overheard a conversation that I had with a gentleman next to me, another lawyer chimed in and, and you said, well, who are you? And I introduced myself and yeah, one of the founders of national trial lawyers, you know, my lead doc that I founded, um, and, uh, you know, pioneered, you know, the agents, you know, the agency world and advertising. And so we struck up a conversation and we, uh, we connected, we had a great breakfast and, uh, we made friends.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And I'm glad we did because you're right. You know, there are, there are a lot of us who are younger guys. Uh, you know, I'm in my mid thirties and I remember the Oh eight I was working in construction at that time and I remember what happened, you know, everything kind of came grinding to a halt and it was a scary time, but it wasn't really my business. And I had other options. I decided to go, you know, I'm going to go to law school. Actually that was kind of a big reason why I went to law school was because there was really not much else to do. And I took a constitutional law class, loved it, and the rest was kinda history. But you know, a lot of people, a lot of people now, like now as I'm seeing this, this is my business and this is something that I've been working on for the last seven plus years. This is my career. You know, I've been in law for 10 years and, and now we just don't, you know, we don't know what to do. We don't know how to navigate it. So what, what are some of the kind of, the conversations that you're having with some of the people that you're consulting with about, about those issues?

Speaker 2:

Well, as you know, I've been on many podcasts and television show and really I break it down to, uh, to, uh, smart money and scared money and we're all scared. So let's not, let's not hide that. We all don't know what is going to happen tomorrow, but it's how you manage your business and how you set up to do business and where your mindset is, you know, scary money or scared money. As I say it, you know, people that, uh, and this is a fact, you know, that immediately started cutting things, cutting this, cutting that the world was coming to an end where adding in and Armageddon, we have no idea. And we're panicking. Uh, how you manage your anxiety and how you manage your, your business and your life is, is very important. Music, it comes down to leadership and then you have smart money.

Speaker 2:

You know, that a holding their own and it's easier of course in the PI world versus maybe the criminal, uh, you know, uh, practices because you still have business to work on. Well, you got focused on what you're working on. You have to focus on your business. You know, not having cases come in, you know, let's say on the criminal side of the family law, it's a tough pill to swallow, but you do have business that you all working on and your best work on it. And I think the smart money is working on it. They're embracing what they have and they're living today, not ignoring tomorrow, but they're living today on working on business and generating cash from their businesses. And that's smart money. Uh, you know, I, I, I've been on so many different phone calls and so on. Uh, it reminds me of a fellow that, uh, has a tremendous practice in Kentucky and he laid off in the first week 90% of his, his employees.

Speaker 2:

Well, two things that happened. Number one, he had nobody to work on his cases cause he had an inventory. And that's what counts today. [inaudible] the slow down we can catch up to in September, October and November and make more intelligent decisions on how to handle the lack of business that came in. But he also, you know, basically has to now sit out on the SBA loans and, and sit down on all the financing that is, uh, made available for government. And so that's irrational decisions. Uh, I'm not knocking the irrationalism, I'm just showing you the behavior patterns. You know, right now I'm advising my clients and in the rest of the world to be parents, to be leaders in the community. Now what does that mean? And leaders in your practice means cobble your clients, get in touch with their clients. It's not through an email.

Speaker 2:

So a phone call, speak to your business and tell them that you are here. Their cases, a set a sound. You're not going anywhere. Their cases aren't going anywhere. Keep in mind when somebody calls a lawyer and you know this, they don't call it a chit chat, they call because they're in problem, they're in it probably a catastrophe or you know, whatever it is. Whether in your case they're, you know, they've got a, you know, a family, whatever the is. And so think about that. What can you do to make your clients feel, I don't want to say better, but contribute to them to their, to their situation in a positive way. Now you took an oath to do that, right? When you became a lawyer. And I think you have to go back to your roots and say, this is my leadership. I am a lawyer, I'm a leadership in a leadership responsible position. And you've got to think about how you're treating people and let's talk about the business end of it. How are you treating your clients right now? Because how you treat your clients and how you act to your employees. Well, clearly determine where you end up in the next couple of weeks when we have this, when we get back to work.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that's all right on point. And I'm glad that you said that because we're doing a lot of that, you know, that's exactly what we're doing at our firm is we're just saying to, you know, to our, to our clients, you know, they're, they're like the rest of us. They are in a world of hurt in their own jobs and their own lives with their own rent payments, with their own utilities, with w with all of that stuff. They have already, you know, retained on our firm to help solve not all their problems but their one legal problem. And so we can be the best that we can be doing that. You know, they can call us, we can't help them find toilet paper, but we can make sure that their court cases are covered. And so, you know, our team has just been very unified in stepping up and, and, and following that.

Speaker 1:

Now I have started, uh, I started a, a, a Facebook group called criminal lawyer round table. And on, uh, on Monday we had a group, I think of 12, there's about 50, 60 people in there who are all criminal lawyers and about 12 of them were on a zoom call. And you know, it was very interesting to sort of monitor everybody's response to it. You know, some people were very doom and gloom, uh, we're going to bury our heads in the sand. Other people were very energetic and so, you know, in looking at opportunities to, to grow their business or say, Hey, you know, we've got this great opportunity for compassionate release motions and we can get all of those things released. You know, all these people released. That's tremendous business. And so, you know, there were a lot of ideas and stuff, but I guess my question is how do you, how do you communicate to somebody who is in that first camp, in that first category to, to, you know, to motivate them to, to, to do something positive. It scared money, scared money. Do you? Yeah. What are those people doing?

Speaker 2:

Would you describe it as precisely what, what uh, you know what I'm describing? You know, it's split down the middle. You know, it's, you've got again, scared money and end up in smart money and, but if it comes down to attitude and character, you know, truthfully, at this stage of my life, I've done so many things. I've been in the legal space I really want to work with and I only work with the willing. It's very difficult to turn somebody's mindset and turn somebody's character around. I think you've got to give it a shot. I mean, you've got to talk logic them and show them where the opportunity is, not the negative, you know, negative downfall of it. You know, we, we contribute, you know, one of the things that I'm, I admire you so much is your radio show and your, uh, you know, your podcast because you contribute back to society.

Speaker 2:

We're doing that right now. I think we've got to encourage, you know, the naysayers. But truthfully, I think I chose, choose to work with the positive force in life. Uh, I, I do believe in giving more than you take. I think we, we both do that. That's our creed in life. Uh, but I'm not sure how to turn a negative situation in somebody's head that they've carried around all of their life because they didn't, they didn't wake up today and become negative, but they didn't wake up today and shut their ears down. They didn't wake up today and say, you know, it's all doom and gloom because of today. It's a lifestyle that somebody lives through. And, and I, and I really believe that, uh, you know, when you talk about, I know you reached the community more so, you know, outside the legal arena with your, with your communication.

Speaker 2:

But I think any business has to start really communicating with their clients. If you don't have a database of your clients to reach out and say thank you for your support, hope to see you when this is over, do it on social media. Social media is a friend. Social media is going to [inaudible], uh, explode. It's exploding now. Uh, it's where the internet was 2000. But my encouragement is take a very positive approach. Be the parent, you know, be the, be the leader, be the, you know, when, when somebody greets you in a restaurant. And w we like to go to, you know, the hash kitchen or you know, the Tavern, you know, there's a greeter, there's somebody that welcomes us, that makes us feel comfortable when we walk in. You've got to portray that leadership and people will say, well, there's nobody coming into my restaurant. Well, no kidding. But the people that are coming to their websites and key people that are coming to your, uh, to your, uh, social sites and that is the perfect place to start communicating on the retail end,

Speaker 1:

you know, certainly on our professional land. Do you think, what about, so I, I, I agree with all of that and I, and I, and I encourage more and more lawyers to do video. I do a ton of video, as you know, on my YouTube channel. We've got over 460 something videos. We have a live show now. We do it all. I encourage a lot of lawyers to do that. And sort of like you said, take a leadership role. I created a 35 minute video on a sort of, you know, policy changes that I would like to see for COBA 19, you know, what I would like to see the criminal justice system do and so on and so forth. But what about, you know, and now I mean even, you know, I kind of rushed into that and even now I'm kind of getting a little bit [inaudible] concern was sort of the oversaturation of everybody, uh, on the socials trying to do their own thing a little bit or are you feeling that at all?

Speaker 1:

I mean, I like for example, I saw, you know, I go on Facebook and every single lawyer now has a webinar and every single, you know, they all have a, you know, zoom groups and everybody's like really trying to be proactive and helpful. But at the same time it's like, you know, I got an email from a company, I ordered a tee shirt from, you know, 12 years ago telling me about their coronavirus continuity plan. And I'm like, I don't care about your, you know, your tee shirt, company's coronavirus plan. In other words, is it becoming like too spammy or, or, or is there a right way and a wrong way to do it?

Speaker 2:

Well, there's always a right way or a better way or another way to do something. Uh, yes, there's a rush to a technology. The rest of zoom, there's a rush to all of this messaging. But what's interesting, and if you're looking at human nature, is that when this, when this turns the corner, that will drop off significantly. There'll be some people that have adapted that or learned and say, Hey, you know, this is pretty good. Uh, and they'll continue. Uh, but there's no question, you know, the excitement, the, the, uh, the, the paranoia that the justifying, uh, zoom conferences will, will die off and the strong will continue them and not only continue them, but they'll develop them. You know, that's going to be one of the biggest things that comes out of this. You know, social media will, will further explode. But keep in mind, so many people talk the game, but they don't walk the game.

Speaker 2:

And when I say that, you know, you, you've been at this for quite some time. You have taught me how to do things. I'm attracted to the way you guys have, uh, exposed your business. I mean, you're ahead of the curve. Let me tell you something, Robin, you're a threat to the big giant. You're a threat to the fat cats as I call it. You know, the big guys that have huge budgets on television, they should be afraid of you because what you're doing is you're eating into their marketplace in a more contemporary and, uh, uh, in more of a contemporary way. They're old. They don't think of it this way. They're not having, you know, the, the fact they're not, they don't adapt to new techniques. Uh, but it'll die down and the strongest survive.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. First of all, that's a huge compliment coming from you and I appreciate that. And I do agree with that. I mean, I think, you know, and our only operating philosophy is just to provide value to people. Just value. How can we give value? We don't have any new secret technology. You know, we're recording video using the same equipment anybody can use. We use the same software, the same tools we learned from the same people. You know, we're not doing anything magical, but every time we have a conversation or record a video, we're just saying, what can we do to add to the conversation? How can we help somebody a little bit more than some of these other big guys can do with, you know, there's only so much information you can put on a billboard or on a commercial. And with, you know, the power of social media and the internet. Now we're able to have full conversations. You know, you and I can have a full conversation about what lawyers should do that we could never squeeze into a two minute clip on a, on a major news station.

Speaker 2:

Well, you know what you have done and, and, and I'm only gonna use you as an example for everyone is communicate differently with your audience. You know, I'll, I'll use the fat cats and I, I certainly, you know, uh, help develop the fat cats and you know, they're my friends as well as the small cats, the medium cats. In fact, I'm writing an article for national trailers on the fat cats and the small cats and how the small cats are taking big pieces out of the fat cats behind [inaudible] and how this is going to change. But the, but the truth of the matter is you either have it in you to communicate in a way or you don't, you know, the fat cats, you know, they grew up on television, they grew up on, well, let's just put out a message. If you've been injured, you know, we'll help you, we'll get you all the money you deserve, you know, for getting all the jingles, you know, you know, in Iraq or, or I'm the heavy something or other or whatever it is.

Speaker 2:

You know, they, they've done phenomenal and they'll continue to always do phenomenal. But you're coming at the market and in a different way, you're coming at it with credibility. And I think that's the paradigm shift. Uh, you know, in advertising and messaging, uh, to not only humanize you and to, uh, give you likability and credibility. You're not hiding or you're not, you're not, you don't have a big advertising campaign. And keep in mind, this is, this is where you should go and this is finished. This is allowing you to up the, you know, start is, it's all about credibility. You know, take a look at most of the websites that are out there, they really haven't changed much. They put up a notice that, you know, yeah, we're working at home. Wash your hands and we'll still take your case. But they're not humanizing themselves.

Speaker 2:

They're not talking to the public, they're not getting out there. And, and very few of them, quite frankly, are really, you know, calling their clients because they think they have a big ship. And well, you know, this, I'm going to be efficient. I got so many clients, I'm going to send them an email. I don't believe that the backbone of my advertising from the day I started was to talk to the public the way you would a jury. I remember saying that to you when we had breakfast. You and your partner. And the reason I, I backed that up is because when you're, it's all about communicating to a jury. It's, it's, it's likability, it's credibility. Now, if you run your practice with that frame of mind, I think you're relating to the public and with what's going on right now. You talk about the pivot, that's the popular word of the week. Uh, that's what it's about for me. And I think that's where the opportunity is

Speaker 1:

with the big pivot. Yeah. You know, and some attorneys are saying things like, basically people want to know what to do. Attorneys want to know what to do. It's a, it's a, you know, people, that's why people are scrambling. So when I was talking about what I was seeing on social media about the zoom meetings and the webinars and stuff, everybody's just trying to sort of grasp at things. And I completely agree with you that eventually people are going to get a little bit more comfortable, things will settle down and a lot of that sort of noise will subside. But what about

Speaker 2:

you're starting to subside now, you know, you know, you know, I'm going to answer that question very, very directly. You know what to do. You do the right thing, what is the right thing? It's how you treat people, how you talk to people, how you parent your children, how you parent your clients, how you parent your, your uh, you know, your employees and, and, and, and if you have to figure out what the right thing to do is. And you've got a lot of homework. Yeah,

Speaker 1:

yeah. I think this moment in time is going to be a big wake up call for a lot of people, especially in, you know, because myself included, you know, I attorneys and entrepreneurs, business owners, you know, we kind of get used to that cycle of just go, go, go, go, go. Now there's nothing to go to now there's nowhere to go, there's nowhere to eat. It's just all quiet time. And so now we have to sit alone in our heads and really start to analyze what's important and what's not. And you know, in both our lives and our law firms.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think that the, you know, the second message that I would like to deliver is this is the very, very best time to retool. I mean, to really sit down and think to sit down and go through your social media, sit down, go through your website, go down, look at the processes that you have in place. Look at the software that you subscribe to, cut the fat, which doesn't mean cut the money because she needed to save money. It means cut. What's not productive. This is a tremendous time to take a breath and retool and you have to take that opportunity. You should be doing it anyway. I'm just, you were just using this. This pandemic is an excuse, uh, you know, to do it in a more deliberate way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. There's, there's that concept of creative destruction, right? Every, every so often. It's probably a good idea to tear down a certain part of your business or your health or your fitness or your life and reexamining it. Look at the pieces and say, yeah, that piece doesn't work anymore and let's put it back together again.

Speaker 2:

You know, Ted, pausing and thinking and, and, and one of my original mentors, well books and such was Harvey McKay. He was, he, he owned an envelope company. This is many, many years ago, I think it was before you were born. Um, he, he said, take 20 minutes a day and stare out the window and just think about things. I've never forgotten it. You know, I'm 70, I'm a little twice, probably twice your age, but I still remember the original, you know, gurus. I'll tell you, if you really want to sit back, if you have a moment, read Dale Carnegie's book, which is the second most published book next to the Bible, how to win friends and influence people that could help you a tremendous amount and rethinking your, you're, you're rethinking your thinking.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's one of my favorite books of all time. I probably have five, five scattered around offices and you know, home offices and homes and bedrooms. Uh, I grew up on that book and it's been transformative for me. Uh, just thinking, thinking that way. And I recommend it to a lot of people. Uh, so I, you know, hats off on that recommendation. And, and again, that book was written what, like in the 30s, I think,

Speaker 2:

I think it was written in 1931 if not earlier.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So I mean, just, you know, it's not the latest marketing stuff. It's not how to rank number one on Google. It's back to the basics. It's back to the principles, you know, treat people well, show interest in people here. We call them and you've probably heard the phrase, you know, gas calls, we call them, give a shit calls, right? We give a shit about our clients, like, you know, let people know that you care about them. Um, and, and if you care about other people in your, of service that, that will pay dividends later down the road.

Speaker 2:

Well, it must, absolutely. There's absolutely no question, you know, one little other tidbit. And, and, and, and, uh, uh, two years prior to me, uh, retiring from agency, uh, my dictatorship, I wouldn't take a client on unless I could record their phone calls. Uh, their, their intake phone calls is I wanted to hear how they conducted themselves. What kind of compassion, you know, what is, I was looking for the holes. The other thing I was mandatory is that you had to reread, resign the oath of office that you took when you became a lawyer. And I have never a, with the thousands of lawyers that I know ever met a lawyer that ever read it after they signed it, which is interesting. But if you take a moment and re look at that paragraph, you can pull it up on the internet. Mr Google has it. And, uh, refresh yourself. It says, I will do this. I will do this. This is a contract that is still in place that you signed when you became a lawyer. But looking at it, can we juvenate you look, you either have the DNA or you don't have the DNA. You know, it's kinda like you're a great lawyer or you're an ambulance chaser. You know, people labeled people as ambulance chasers in my business because they don't give a shit and they just want, we're it for the money

Speaker 1:

and there's plenty of people that are that way, even though they say they're not, the conduct is that way. Yeah. And I, and I am curious to see what is going to happen with that contingent of the legal community. You know, it's, this is, this is like you said, this is a situation that we've never experienced before. And what I sort of envision happening is that the people who are not doing it for the right reasons are not going to have the energy to weather the storm. And I think we're going to see them sort of fall by the wayside when everything does open back up.

Speaker 2:

Well, I fall back to, you know, talking to the public the way you would a jury. We have the greatest jury system in the world. Uh, you can't fool the jury. I mean, sometimes you can, sometimes you can't, but the proof comes out, you know, whether it's, you know, no matter what case that you look at, no matter how you conduct it, you really can't fool the jury. You know, people will say, well, know the OJ case. You know, I mean, we'll, Cochran was a client of mine for 35 years. It's still an agent of the firmest client on my agency. I was there, you know, during this whole process in full a jury, the police screwed it up. So you can't fool a jury is what I'm trying to really say.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. And people, people recognize that. And I think, you know, I think when everything is humming and the economy is just roaring through, I think people can oftentimes engage with a lawyer or a business or anything with a little less scrutiny. But when, when times are a little bit tougher, maybe they are looking, you know, a little bit further. They are checking that attorneys, uh, you know, bar disciplinary history history or they're looking at more online reviews and then they're, they're, you know, they're trying to identify and connect with people who, like you said, are doing it for the right reason. And then because of, because of their character during this time, they're going to see the benefits of that into the future.

Speaker 2:

You know, there's so many things that you can do to benefit your practice right now. Uh, you know, I was on the phone with, uh, with a dear friend of mine. He's got one of the largest practices in the country, uh, uh, at a Denver. Uh, they actually moved to Arizona in the last couple of years and they're reaching out, you know, to a lot of that Coke council, they're reaching out to a lot of new people and saying that, you know, if you are running into financial issues and processing cases and witnesses and, and you know, if Cassius 50, you're not going to be able to maybe, uh, you know, process the case the way you wanted to, we'll be there for you now. Is that self-serving? Sure it is. It's self-serving because they want to be part of the case, but he's doing something to grow the business and at the end the client, it's a win win for the client because they'll still have the right resources working on the case. So there's lots of different things that you can do to, to advance your business. I like what you said. Let's just take a moment and let's, let's think about what we can do. It's a pause moment. You know, we're going to bed a little earlier was w w w we don't have the, the distractions that we're having ticket vantage of that [inaudible]

Speaker 1:

yeah, I completely agree with that and I hope, I hope a lot of people take that advice because I do see some people who are using this pause as a time to, you know, drink themselves out of, you know, out of their minds to lounge by the pool too. You know, just kind of pause everything including their health and their wellbeing and their, their regular routines. And, and that's to me just not a good use of your time when you know, when you should be using this time to grow.

Speaker 2:

What is a good use of your time is reconnecting with your family, spending time with the family, being the parents that you want to be. And I do think that's a good time, but if you're not working on your business and taking this opportunity, first of all, you're not really entrepreneurial. Uh, you're employed maybe by yourself, but this is an entrepreneur's conversation. This is a, this is a conversation. People that are willing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well I do, like I said, I do hope people jump on that. Uh, w we're going to see quickly what are you working on these days? So we've got a couple of minutes left, but you know, what are the, the, the projects, what are you doing with your time? Where are you kind of pivoting? I know you're involved in a lot of different things, so anything that we want to highlight in the pandemic or just in general? Well, just in general. Yeah. I mean, you know, what, if, if you know, the audience is listening and they want to connect with you, if they want to see what you're doing, what you're up to, and you know, they're interested in your projects, what are those?

Speaker 2:

Well, you can always Google me as I can Google you and everything that you know, in your life comes up. You know, you can't hide from the internet. Uh, I'm deeply involved in national trial lawyers. Uh, as you know, I was one of the founding, uh, you know, fathers have it, uh, with Keith givens and John Romano and Howard nations. And, uh, we started last year the a list, which is the top 1100 advertisers in the country. What we're doing is I'm bringing that together so that we can help teach the other, uh, 6,000 lawyers that are advertising just the letter on television alone. Uh, but it's giving back to the community. So I'm deeply involved in that, where we're preparing for a summit in January. Uh, I still am involved with my lead docket, which is a leading source of a piece of software for intaking conversion.

Speaker 2:

We just merged our business with file line. Uh, and that was a long process and we wanted to really take a good look at, you know, who we were going to partner up with, uh, because we wanted to take it to the next level and five on one or they recognize that it's the best piece of intake and conversion software in the business. And then just thrilled on that. Uh, I have seven or eight private clients, uh, that I work very diligently on that I am working diligently on. And you know, my business is to make money, help my clients, show them how to make money. When somebody says, well, Harlem, what do you do? I show my clients how to make money. I'm a strategist and understanding strategy and showing people how to work with their vendors in such a is my passion and I'm always going to be driven by my passion. And I can honestly tell you that I'm only working 40 hours a week now in retirement. Uh, well actually I'm working more now. We're all working, you know, from seven in the morning to seven at night, you know, through this pandemic. Uh, but I, I'm as busy as absolutely possible, you know, in the forefront illegal advertising. Uh, I love that position because I like to give more than I take.

Speaker 1:

Well, and you do, you do. You've always been, you know, helpful to us. You've always been a great resource for information. And I appreciate you taking time. You know, it's hilarious that you're retired, but you're working 40 hours a week. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

In fact, it's funny thing happened to me. I just took on a client. That's my old agency's biggest client. Uh, and so, you know, they sent an email and said that, uh, what of a Heartland says, you know, follow it. Harlan says, so I would love to be the fly on the wall when they got that and they read it. But I've had an excellent relationship with, they're excellent agencies, network affiliates, and, uh, so what moving, you know, very, very quick to, uh, to get the client back on track. Uh, what got them off track, quite frankly, was he's a single parent. He's got four kids and his priority shifted and he's, he's got the largest practice in, in, in, in a particular state. Uh, but, uh, you know, the truth of it is, is that, you know, I'm dedicated to my clients. I always have been and that's, that is my passion and uh, and money seems to come

Speaker 1:

right. Yeah. And you know, the, the takeaways, I think from the whole, the whole kind of theme of the show is do the right thing, you know, be a value be of service and the rest of it will sort itself out. As long as you have that foundation,

Speaker 2:

have a deliberate plan, have a process in place, that's what you really need to work on. Look at the process of your law firm. You know, from intake to conversion. I'm a firm believer in intake. You know, I, I trademark what you don't know, you don't know. And ambassador first impressions, that's what a first impressions is, is the person that answers the telephone. Generally speaking, the receptionist who's treated the worst and paid the least. So you'd better run it. We wanna revisit that. Yeah,

Speaker 1:

yeah, yeah. Where can people connect with you? So I know you've got your website right, Harland, schillinger.com. Uh, and then all your socials are on there.

Speaker 2:

Yes. Yeah. I don't solicit business. Um, you know, my, my, my, my, uh, my card is pretty full. Uh, but what I do, I'm very passionate about giving more than I take. Very few people that do that. You know, when I was in business, when I had the agency, uh, I got into this compensation many times, especially now, I never once sold a television commercial. What I sold was how to make money was how to, how to scale your business. Now we used, we used advertising is the tool. I wish my competitors, and I've always tried to get my competitors to think that way. Uh, but, uh, you know, again, uh, you know, if you think only about transaction, you know, I wanna I want to say something, you know, lawyers that, that, that come in and out of their office and all they look at is how many business cases we sign up today, how many did we get today? And they're not really looking at the calls, the overall strategy. You know, where things are coming from. What didn't you take today are in trouble in today's, in today's market,

Speaker 1:

right? Yeah, I and I agree with that and I think, I think this, this period of time is going to require energy. It's going to require passion. It's going to require some enthusiasm like you said, a plan, but you need all of that

Speaker 2:

to, to, to create that energy. I mean if you're doing this just because you like to see the cash register ring, it's not going to be ringing for a couple months. So you've gotta you know, and if, and if you can't maintain your sense of forward progress, then you're, you're going to get left behind it at the end of this it diff. What, what, what is going to define you would that what has always defined us, his character character is what people think of you when you're out of the room. Whether we're talking to a restaurant or you know, all the businesses that you have on your shows are lawyers. It's all the same with people. Character rules. And we [inaudible] character ties into your brand. You know, I'm very big on brand. You're big on brand. This is your brand. Your brand is, you get more than you take. That's what you and your partner branded yourself and brand is what people think of you when you're out of the room because it's the same as character.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I like it. I like it. All right, well listen, so, so I can point people back to your website, Harlan schillinger.com. Um, you are, can you tell us a little more about that event? You said it's coming up in January, so it's a little bit of ways away. Well, every year we do a national trial. Lawyers has its summit. It is the Superbowl of lawyers. We have a 14 and a half thousand members. Uh, anybody can attend. Of course you'll, it's a paid attendance. It's in South beach. It's a, this is a, this year, I believe it's on January 31st, first last, uh, last couple of days in January. Uh, it is a huge event. We generally have 1200 or so lawyers, a lot of, lot of comradery, tremendous trial skills. Uh, I am in charge of the business of law, which occupies, you know, one of our three days.

Speaker 2:

We started national trial lawyers, uh, because we wanted to jump into the business a lot. And, uh, and, and, and not only just trial skills, uh, the business of law is paramount. Uh, you know, I remember how it nations who was my great mentors with the greatest lawyers in the country, you know, say to me, listen, I know I'm a good trial lawyer. I also know that my business sacrament and my being a good businessman kept me in business. And so we wanted to develop a, uh, you know, a group of likeminded people. And if you go to a national trial lawyers and you can see who's involved, it is literally the Superbowl of lawyers, the, the who's who of, of law firms. And you can look at it and say, well, these guys are a litigated. You know, people look so litigated. So, you know, from a Gloria all red to Mark or merit to Mark Yara dos to Mark linear, I can just rattle them all off.

Speaker 2:

But they're all members because they all have businesses and we all have like-mindedness of giving more back, getting more than we take. I'm very, very proud of, of being part of that and uh, and in, in, in running my, my section. Awesome. And so people can get more information about that or sign up at if they just Google national trial lawyers and sure how they follow the links to get there. Yeah. But I think what's, what's really important from this conversation is not promoting me or not, you know, trying to find me and what I have to say. Uh, it's, it's, it's take a look at yourself, take a look at your character. Re retool your business, work on your business. What's your client's first, which means pick up the phone and tell them it's okay. It's going to be okay. That case is okay.

Speaker 2:

That's why they came to you in the first place. And karma, we haven't used that word yet, but you know it. And you believe in it. Common will rule. I agree with you on all of that and as always, great wisdom by Harlan Schillinger. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Uh, we will put links to everything that we talked about today in the show notes, but, uh, you know, until until the next time we talk, I want to thank you for the time that you've donated the day to come on the show and share your wisdom and your insight and we'll continue the conversation. Thanks a lot, Harlan, and remember reakfast it's my turn. Next time I remember. Let's, let's pick a date. We'll get it scheduled. Peace out. Thank you. Thanks, Harlan. Okay. Okay.

Speaker 3:

The ruler nation podcast is brought to you by the R and R law group, Arizona's premier criminal defense and personal injury law firm available@wwwdotrrlawaz.com or give us a call, four eight zero four zero zero one three.